Silver To Hit New Highs Despite Bearish Forecasts

The price of silver will hit new highs as an explosion of investment demand will overwhelm supply in the future.  This once in a lifetime event will occur not because of bullish rhetoric, technical analysis or brokerage recommendations, but because the fundamentals will finally kick in a major way.

Of course, this realization today may seem like selling ice water to an Eskimo by the silver investor as precious metal sentiment is at a decade low — or even lower.  Furthermore, I have heard through the grapevine that even some of the precious metal analysts have thrown in the towel and sold their gold and silver miners for the typical large cap stocks on the S&P and Dow Jones.

This was the very plan by the Fed & member banks from the start.  The big “V” correction in the precious metals back in 2008-2009 did not persuade investors from buying gold and silver at severe lows.  Matter-a-fact, it actually motivated huge retail buying of physical bullion.

This time around the monetary authorities got smarter.  They engaged a new “SLASH & BURN” tactic by bleeding the gold and silver investors dry by slowly crushing the price of gold and silver over a two-year period.  To complete their masterpiece, they initiated two huge take-downs in April & June to make sure even the most hardcore precious metal investors would question their holdings.

Today, the precious metal investors are still holding onto the fundamentals knowing at some point in time things will turn around.  To give comfort to the silver investors, Jeff Christian of CPM Group plans on speaking at the Silver Summit this week to make sure that investors realize silver is going to consolidate for the next few decades at $17-18 and move up to a new high before the end of the century.

Yes, I am exaggerating here, but that is basically their stance even though they are talking about the end of a decade, not this century.  According to CPM Group’s new release:

Silver May Hit New Highs in the Next Ten Years:  CPM Group

Silver prices may rise to record highs within the next 10 years, according to CPM Group’s Silver Long-Term Outlook report released Thursday.

This year through September, silver prices have averaged 20% less than in the same period in 2012, CPM Group said, forecasting the declining trend to persist in the medium term.

Longer term, however, prices could begin to rise again within the next 10 years, it said, “continuing a secular bull trend that began at the turn of the century.” Silver rose at a compounded annual average rate of 23.2% between 2002 and 2011.

In the latter half of the next 10 years, investors are expected to approach the silver market “more positively as economic conditions improve relative to the first half of the projected period,” CPM Group said. “Investors are expected to step up their purchases, backed by expectations for strong capital appreciation amid rising industrial demand for the metal.”

And “in this scenario, silver prices could rise rapidly, possibly touching fresh record highs within the next ten years,” it said.

So, silver investors do not worry… according to Jeff Christian’s CPM Group, new silver highs are coming.  Unfortunately, you are just going to have to wait a decade before this takes place.  CPM Group seems to be hinting at the well-known market timing strategy of “Sell in May and go away.”  However, they may be implying, “Sell today & come back towards the end of the decade.”

Now, I am not going to get into personal attacks or name calling here as I may have done in the past, because it does not bode well for an ongoing professional debate.  I have gone to the CPM Group website and looked at the analysts there and I have to say, they are a smart group of people with a great deal of experience doing what they believe is right.

As for the “Manipulation theme” on gold and silver, I am not going to get into it.  I realize Jeff Christian does not believe in manipulation even though central banks did conspire to rig the LIBOR, and GATA has proven that the U.S. is legally allowed to intervene in the precious metals, commodities or whatever markets they see fit according to a law passed in 1934.

So, I am going to let GATA and Bill Murphy fight and debate Christian on that issue as they are more qualified.  That being said, I believe there is another angle that will almost guarantee much higher valuations for silver in the future.

We have to come to the conclusion that if manipulation is going on… then why would it stop?  Or how do you stop the Elite from controlling the markets if they have been successful in doing so for hundreds of years?  Proving that manipulation is taking place only makes those pulling the strings laugh and snicker because they realize nothing will become of it.

That being said, the common sense approach is to look at the variables and things that the Elite cannot control.  Those of you who have read my articles are aware, my take is that a peaking energy supply is the fundamental the Elite can’t control.  Peak oil will force the end of the fiat monetary system and bring a new life to the precious metals.

Even though there are some who agree with my premise, many don’t believe in peak oil and others eyes glaze over as they read about the details of energy and the EROI.  This is quite a shame as I believe energy is the most important factor going forward for not only the precious metal investor but also for the public and world at large.

Boss of Drilling-Services Giant Believes Peak Oil is Here

Dave Demshur EnerCom 2013

Dave Demshur was a speaker at the August 2013 Enercom Oil & Gas Conference in Denver.  Core Lab is headquartered in the Netherlands and has 70 offices in 50 countries.  They specialize in analyzing drill results from the major and 100’s of miner oil & gas companies in the world.  They take this drilling data and assist these companies with increasing their efficiency in removing more oil and gas from their fields and reservoirs.

If anyone has a good idea of where global oil production is headed in the future, Core Lab is most certainly one of the best qualified.  According to Dave Kamm on

Never very bashful in the breakout session, CEO Dave Demshur readily offered his thoughts about the big energy picture. When queried about predictions of increased oil production he took the under in most cases.

Demshur is a “peak oil” proponent — translated it means that at some point the oil production of the planet will maximize, flatten, and then diminish. For the first time I can recall, he said we have reached the peak area.

He estimates planetary oil production in 2014, 2015, and maybe 2016 to be at the peak level we shall ever be able to generate. When asked about future oil independence here in the US, he just smiled — and added “no chance”.

Let me repeat what Demshur stated so it can really sink in.  He estimates planetary oil production will peak in 2014, 2015 or possibly 2016 and the U.S. will have “no chance” in becoming energy independent.

It is very hard to give an exact date for peak as there are many variables, but here we can see that a CEO from one of the major drilling-services companies believes peak is coming in the next few years.  Folks, if this is true… that’s not much time at all.

Silver Supply & Demand Forecasts vs Peak Oil

How will Energy Impact Silver Investment2

As I have mentioned in several articles in the past, peak oil-energy will destroy the ability to properly forecast supply and demand forces in the future.  We are entering into uncharted waters.  This is where I can offer a different opinion than the one suggested by Jeff Christian and the analysts at the CPM Group.

I have not purchased CPM Group’s 2013 Long Term Silver Outlook and actually do not plan to.  I would imagine a great deal of research and effort was put into creating this report, but I have to say, if Peak Oil arrives in the next few years, the data from these high-priced reports will become increasingly worthless.

You see, Christian may be able to debate and confuse investors on whether or not manipulation is taking place, but he cannot deny the ramifications of peak oil and its impact on the precious metals.  Folks, peak oil changes everything.

Who cares if a junior mining company has resources of say 3-5 million of ounces of gold in the ground if there isn’t an inexpensive enough or readily available source of liquid energy to extract the metal in the future.  Sure, the mine may go commercial, but what happens in say 3-5 years into its 20 year mine lifespan if energy supply becomes short??

In a nutshell… don’t count on a growing supply of gold and silver once the PEAK OIL PHAT LADY SINGS.

Most analysts including Christian have no clue how to forecast in a peak energy environment….ZIP.  Hell, even I don’t know the details on how things are going to unfold.  However, I will assume that those companies who are now commercial and have proven reserves will more than likely continue for a quite while whereas most of the juniors will never become mines.

The irony of it all is… I actually had a speaking slot at the Silver Summit but had to cancel last month because of certain commitments.  Now I wish I could have attended to present my views on how energy will greatly impact the values of the precious metals in a positive way.

Furthermore, I would have provided data that would have suggested that manipulation does not have to be proven for the precious metals to regain their roles as monetary metals.  Basically, Jeff Christians negative views on manipulation… in the end won’t matter.

The world is heading straight for an ENERGY WALL shortly and most (99%) of the analysis are forecasting business as usual for the next several decades.  Peak Energy will destroy the valuations of most of the stocks on the Dow and S & P 500 going forward as growth will not be possible for the majority of companies.

As the value of stocks, bonds, retirement accounts and etc continue to disintegrate under the gravity of a falling energy supply, there will be a radical change in silver investment demand.  Gone will be the pathetic supply and demand calculations that will seem quite silly in the whole scheme of things.

At this point in time, investing will switch from owning paper assets providing yield to physical assets like silver and gold that will protect wealth — very much like squirrels hoarding acorns for the winter.  The majority of investors are not prepared for this change.

At the SRSrocco Report we will continue to provide updates on energy data and explore how peak oil will impact the precious metals, mining and overall economy.

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35 Comments on "Silver To Hit New Highs Despite Bearish Forecasts"

  1. I’m not a big fan of Christian, but if I recall correctly, he was calling for a major correction long before the smack down happened. He was ridiculed, laughed at and mocked. I think he was at a confence debating Bill Murphy a few moons ago, where Christian was again laughed at it. He was the person who doubted the existence of Maguire. I don’t care for Christian, but let’s call a spade a spade. He was right and the perma-silver bulls were wrong! Period! I think even the ‘great Jim Rogers’ is calling for another smack down in the metals. I believe it. I think you too should heed their warning, and store away some cash. Stop the pump.

    • Bob A,

      I get where you are coming from. However, your “He was right call” was due to market rigging. As I mentioned in the article, I don’t have to get into the manipulation card, but if we are going to discuss short term movements in the paper precious metals then its worth exploring.

      I gather most people do not realize the dire situation that the fiat money global financial system is in currently. Not only is the Dollar & massive U.S Treasury Market a huge ponzi scheme, but so are most of the global conventional assets under management. According the CityUK Fund Report total global assets stood at nearly $90 trillion at the end of 2012.

      I guess investors are getting a bit immune to the serious volaitily that takes place when the Fed coughs out a Taper remark, or sneezes a continuation of QE.

      Bob, I don’t care about one, two or three plus years. People have been putting away currency in their retirement accounts for decades. So to get all worked up on a short term move in the paper price of silver to me is really… meaningless.

      I like to look at things in a broader context. The only reason why gold and silver are at their lows today is because the Fed & Central Banks have propped up the market with TENS of $TRILLIONS OF LIQUIDITY. Yes, tens of trillions.

      I have been a broken record with this equation:


      So, once a person is able to wrap that equation around their mind and the fact that peak oil is on its way, then common sense, wisdom and 3rd grade math skills should be appropriate enough to fill in the blanks.

      If people want to go by Technical Analysis and price trends in this sort of market… please feel free. I like to error on the side of caution.

      Lastly, I don’t believe in the PUMP or DUMP mentality. Rather, I believe in long term investing. I just like to remind the reader-investor that fundamentals are still driving the precious metal markets forward, even though $100’s of trillions in paper garbage have forced the ship to steer off course.


    • Actually Christian at CPM was right about his call because it NEVER CHANGED!!!! If I lived in Ireland and kept saying everyday, “the sun’s gonna come out, the sun’s gonna come out”, eventually I’ll be right.

      When silver was $9.00 he was calling for lower gold so I don’t want to hear that he was right. That’s BS, borderline Stockholm Syndrome at this point.

      Another thing about CPM is they continuously overlook the investor and they always assume scrap is going to be higher every year.

  2. Oh, I’m in your camp trust me. I have very little fiat ‘in the system,’ have a little cash under the bed, and lots of silver. I’m sure there is minipulation on the down-side AND up. I’m 46, and plan on holding long-term as insurance against the collapse of the dollar, which I too believe is a mathematical certainty. I have dry powder for the next smack down to 18 or lower. I hope prices stay down here for months and years to come. Heck, I hope they fix the problems…miraculously…so my kids and future generations don’t have to deal with the chaos that will ensue in a collapse scenario. I truly hope it is Pollyanna for generations to come. However, as I certain expect better things in the future, I’ve planned for catastrophe. 🙂 thanks for sharing your insight. I think Christian and Rogers will be right in the short-term…and planning my bets accordingly…short-term being 6 – 12 months. Come on cheap silver. 🙂

    • Bob A,

      I also have family to consider. I guess the reason why it gets a bit old hearing the bearish rhetoric from Christian et al, is due to the fact that they are forecasting in an environment where they believe business as usual will continue for decades.

      This is my biggest beef. I just watched Art Berman’s 1 hour presentation on shale gas for the third time on why shale gas has been a commercial failure in the United States. Let’s just say, Art backs up his opinion with excellent field by field data that will bore the living hell out of someone not in the industry.

      Here is just one slide from his presentation on the IMPENDING DEMISE of CHESAPEAKE ENERGY:

      for those who can’t make out the image on the right, its an early 20th century trainwreck.

      Amazing that Chesapeake Energy, the darling of Shale Gas is hemmoraging serious free cash flow while its stock price is up 78% since the beginning of the year even though natgas is only up 15% and oil 5%. Talk about market fundamentals at work….LOL.

      Furthermore, it also gets old to read and listen to analysts call shale gas and oil the best thing since sliced bread.

      Berman labels shale energy correctly when he says its not a NEW ENERGY REVOLUTION, but rather THE RETIREMENT OF THE INDUSTRY.

      Again, the precious metal investors on the most part do not understand the seriousness of the energy situation going forward.

      We have no PLAN B….LOL

      Good grief.


    • lastmanstanding | October 22, 2013 at 7:17 am |

      If silver goes to $18, the premiums will increase to the same or more than they did the last time.

      Premiums are back down, buy now…not to mention that you can get it now.

  3. 2016? The current economic distress IS peak oil. It’s happening now, since 2008. Some may notice the price is persistently $100/barrel, not $11/barrel like in 1999 or $1.69 right after WW2. That’s triple-digit prices in a completely shitty economy. God forbid if there were any actual recovery whatsoever, the prices would take a moonshot.

  4. Few things I don’t quite understand,

    1. Let say US have plenty of oils more than enough to export. I don’t think the people in US can enjoy cheap oil because US has to service their unsustainable debts!! So US has to export most of the oil which means people in the US have to pay a high price for little oil reserved for domestic use. Lets take from another angle, do you think China, Japan and Russia holding those US treasury will happily sit aside and let US use those oil. They will demand the oil in return, all countries are desperate for oil. So I don’t see there will be cheap energy music.

    2. From what you describe, it seems that once we hit the PEAK ENERGY level, the inflation will naturally kick in. This may add on top of the inflation by the fiat money created in the system.

    3. My view on PMs is that it is rare and it cannot be created by mankind. So when a currency is backed by gold, this forces the government to be discipline and the currency will gain TRUST from other parties. When you say PM is Energy Money, do you mean PM is a end product (or symbol) of “energy consumed extracting from earth” because energy = money?

    Sorry for the long comment and keep up the good work.

    • Joe,

      In my study of the EROI – Energy Returned on Invested, I have found the world is nothing more than an ENERGY MATRIX. If you look at the complex market we have today, it can be broken down in a basic function: TRADING ENERGY FOR ENERGY.

      Individuals working is a form of energy as labor. A cup of coffee from Starbucks is nothing more than a product of energy, IN ALL FORMS & ALL STAGES, Basically, individuals, societies and the world function because of energy.

      Mike Maloney from labels gold and silver as ECONOMIC ENERGY. This is actually a perfect word. Gold or silver in the past and still true today can be traded for other forms of ECONOMIC ENERGY whether that be for labor, energy, goods or services.

      It takes 22 cents to print a $100 bill and about $1200-$1300 to produce an ounce of gold. However, an ounce of gold is going for $1,330 presently and the $100 Dollar Bill for $100 even though the cost was only 22 cents. The DOLLAR is not backed by gold or silver so its not money, but rather a form of an ENERGY IOU.


    • lastmanstanding | October 22, 2013 at 7:20 am |

      no energy produced…no metals produced.

      That is why it might be important to have some laying around.

  5. Some people make the mistake of calling the current situation in the gold and silver a PRICE LOW instead of a SENTIMENT LOW. That just goes to show how badly the public is programmed to think ultra-short term.

    These prices are not low at all. Good god, for years one could have bought gold under 300 dollars and silver under 5. Now they are both more than 4x more expensive. How on Earth is that cheap?

    Yes, investor sentiment is bad — but who cares? People who bought gold at 1700+ dollars because Eric King told them to do so… and then threw in the towel at 1200… well, that’s how it’s supposed to work, isn’t it? Capitalism I mean… The system is built on bad sentiment which allows the trained contrarians to buy when others are selling without moving the price against themselves.

    • Anon,

      When you say the price of gold or silver is not LOW because you could have bought them for much cheaper back in 2000, only makes sense at face value. I could have said the same thing about a barrel of oil which was $25 back in 2001. Oil is more than 4 times more expensive today ($109) than it was in 2001… but it did hit a high of $147 back in 2008… it is lower today because the MARKET SENTIMENT IS LOW??

      The more than 4 fold increase in the price of gold and silver has been due to the huge increase in the price of energy. Furthermore, this just covers the cost of producing gold and silver. Now, if we include the 100’s of $trillions of Pension Plans, Mutual Funds, Insurance Funds, IRAs, Retirement Accounts, Bonds and etc… than we find that gold and silver are VERY CHEAP in comparison.

      Folks, you have to remember, the world has invested its currency in these $100’s of trillions of supposed assets that are really ENERGY IOUS. Once Peak energy hits, the value of these supposed assets will evaporate

      The great transfer or wealth from paper to gold and silver in the future will show just how CHEAP they were.


      • Hi Steve,

        I actually do agree with your basic premise that energy supply is a major driver of all commodity prices. Another being money supply inflation. I am absolutely sure that in a few short years the prices of oil, gold and silver will be much higher.

        I was just making an observation regarding the short-term time frame that most people live in when considering prices. Also, what I was trying to insinuate was that sometimes people are easily pumped up and make too large investments which — while correct in a longer time frame, don’t necessarily pan out in a shorter time frame. Thus the reason for a low in investor sentiment. There is only one correct way even to buy physical metals and a thousand bad ones.

        The other point you are making is that today’s paper prices are low when taking into consideration future preference for physical assets. I guess that’s one way to look at it. Another way is to deem the paper price irrelevant, but even that’s a stretch, because it’s irrelevant only if you can come up with paper moneys today to pay that price. 🙂

  6. CPM Group and the ‘Establishment’;

    CPM Group is UK based but is owned by Omnicom Group headquartered in NY City.
    Omnicom Group is global in its reach and employs 130,000 people worldwide. Needless to say they have very close ties with the globes financial industry.

    These (so-called) fact based studies put forth by CPM Group (through Christian) appear firstly in ‘MarketWatch’ which is owned by the ‘Wall Street Journal’ which is owned by the ‘Dow Jones Indices’ which is owned (90%) by the CME Group which owns the COMEX, DJI, S&P 500, plus many, many more, influencial companies.

    Not saying there is “manipulation” here and I’m not saying there isn;’t. Just seems to me to be a bit of a conflict of interest at work. Anything CPM says – I take with a very large grain of salt.

    • OutlookingIn,

      Thanks for the background info on CPM Group. I agree with you that manipulation may indeed be taking place… however I think the analysts that work for Christian are not actually manipulating data, they are just reporting what they see. What they don’t realize is that the system in which they are reporting data, is totally rigged.

      This is my major contention. Supply-demand & price forecasts will become meaningless going forward due to energy constraints… with or without the realization of manipulation.


  7. I really enjoyed SRSs input on other blogs, but do we really need another blog pumping silver? How long until this site starts selling? Why don’t people see this as a conflict of interest. Pumping stocks and promoting them is against the law, why isn’t pumping commodities and selling them illegal? Talk about manipulation.

    • Will,

      Thanks for the reply and I am glad you found my articles-posts from other sites enjoyable. However, I would like to kindly remind you that I have been expressing concern for the fiat monetary system as well as paper assets for quite some time. Furthermore, I have been stating in my articles for years, that gold and silver are the GO TO ASSETS.

      I don’t know where you get that its illegal to recommend stocks or commodities. If that was true than all the banks and brokerage houses in the United States including all the analysts on CNBC and Bloomberg should go to jail.

      I don’t come out and say BUY the precious metals, but I do believe the precious metals are the place to be in the end. And no… I don’t plan on selling any precious metals here. Although, I will be providing PAID REPORTS soon on information & detail that goes above and beyond what is found in the public articles.

      Now, if I had been warning people about Shorting the Mortgage-Back Security Industry back in 2007-2008 and told people that it would be wise to sell their MBS or to short MBS… do you think that is PUMPING??

      I provide FUNDAMENTAL DATA here and I see no problem sharing information about investments that I believe will do well in the future.


      Lastly, if you read my comments at the end of this article, you would have seen that I discuss energy and I gave evidence that Chesapeake Energy is a company that is going to IMPLODE. Thus, a smart investor might consider shorting the living hell out of that stock in the future….. BASED ON FUNDAMENTALS. I don’t see this as pumping, but who am I to judge those that form their own opinions of what is the correct defintion of certain terms.

      While I appreciate your concern for this site not to become a PUMPING PRECIOUS METAL site, I will not be selling physical metal here but I will continue to suggest to investors that gold and silver are the places to be in the future.


  8. Steve, It’s not pumping if you believe what you are preaching. Which you clearly do.

    Thanks so much for all that you do here. Most of us appreciate it.

  9. “The world is heading straight for an ENERGY WALL shortly and most (99%) of the analysis are forecasting business as usual for the next several decades. Peak Energy will destroy the valuations of most of the stocks on the Dow and S & P 500 going forward as growth will not be possible for the majority of companies.”

    Nope, the world will NOT run into an energy wall. It is entirely possible to extract energy from the active medium, also known as “zero point energy”, “Dirac sea and “aether”. A fact, which has been known since at least 1892:

    “Throughout space there is energy. Is this energy static or kinetic? If static our hopes are in vain; if kinetic—and this we know it is, for certain—then it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of nature.”

    Now I do hold a Masters degree in Electrical Engineering and I studied this stuff. When you have a background in Electrical Engineering and you really study aether science, you come to the conclusion that the stories brought forth by main stream science are just as rigged as the stories brought forth by main stream financial “experts”. In both cases, no one appears to bother about the fundamentals.

    Well, in energy science, the fundamentals are that energy IS available everywhere in the Universe and can be obtained in any desired quantity from Tesla’s “wheelwork of nature” with very little effort. In fact, all one needs is a strong “static” electric field, BECAUSE the “field” is not static at all, as Tesla realized already in 1892. The German Professor Claus Turtur realized the same thing just a few years ago and wrote a ground-breaking thesis which explains in detail how to utilize this energy source. The fundamentals, so to speak:

    Of course, main stream science does not want to hear about this, but I can assure you they will find out they are betting on the wrong horse soon, perhaps even before the gold/silver riggers will meet their Waterloo.

    Once you understand the fundamentals, you can also understand some of those “impossible” inventions which have been shown to work. One of these is Stan Meyer’s “car on water”, which is actually a very tragic story. The guy HAD a car running “on water”, which has been shown to work on a Ohio TV station.

    So, somewhere around 1980-1985 the car ran on water, but then it stopped working.


    What happened?

    He happened to have used electropolished stainless steel.

    But he did not know that.

    Nobody did.

    And nobody found out.

    Until 2013.

    So, now we KNOW how to do this, so that’s what I am going to do:

    And it will be all “open source”. No more secrets, no more patents, no more greed, no more “peak energy”.

    In other words: it’s time to let go of the “peak energy” hypothesis, which is nothing but the result of another rigging game running on it’s last legs. After all, nothing can stop an idea whose time has come.

    And that’s about time, considering we could have had this kind of technology over a hundred years ago if only Tesla would have chosen any other financier but J.P. Morgan (where have I heard that name before?) for his Wardenclyffe project:

    This wasn’t just a system for wireless communication. It was a way to power the whole Earth, using longitudinal dielectric waves propagating trough the interior of the planet, which hardly any engineer nor scientist understands, because these supposedly do not exist. Either way, this is what happened, according to Wikipedia:

    “Tesla tried to generate more interest in Wardenclyffe by revealing its ability to transmit wireless electricity, but Morgan was not interested.”

    Now why was Morgan not interested in powering the planet electrically?

    Because this energy system could not be equipped with a meter and would have freed the people on the planet from energy enslavement, that’s why.

    But this time it’s different. This time, we got an idea which can be made in any reasonably equipped garage by just about any technician, so there will be no way to stop this anymore.

    • Arend,

      I appreciate your long reply and the explanation of “zero point energy.” I have had several readers email me the same kind of information on this sort of so-called free energy. I would like to start out by stating that I am not an electrical engineer and I do not have a great deal of knowledge on the this subject.

      That being said, I have looked at several of these supposed “Energy Break-throughs” such as Stan Meyer’s Dune Buggy. I am still quite skeptical of these inventions, but that doesn’t mean I can’t keep an open mind to see if they are in fact solutions rather than hoaxes.

      I did come across this information about Stan Meyers Dune Buggy from Wikipedia:

      In 1996, Meyer was sued by two investors to whom he had sold dealerships, offering the right to do business in Water Fuel Cell technology. His car was due to be examined by the expert witness Michael Laughton, Professor of Electrical Engineering at Queen Mary, University of London and Fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering. However, Meyer made what Professor Laughton considered a “lame excuse” on the days of examination and did not allow the test to proceed.[3] According to Meyer, the technology was patent pending and under investigation by the patent office, the Department of Energy and the military.[12][unreliable source?] His “water fuel cell” was later examined by three expert witnesses in court who found that there “was nothing revolutionary about the cell at all and that it was simply using conventional electrolysis.” The court found Meyer guilty of “gross and egregious fraud” and ordered him to repay the two investors their $25,000.[3]

      Yes, it could be a grand conspiracy to hide his work, however I don’t believe everything is a conspiracy.

      Arend, I have also read a great deal of work by Ugo Bardi at his blog,

      Ugo is a professor of Chemistry at the University of Florence and he is known for his stance on peak oil and nature limits. Of course, when an individual takes this sort of stance, I gather they might not see what you may refer as “Unlimited Free Energy” as per Tesla.

      Ugo did a great job destorying the Myth of the infamous E-Cat cold-fusion machine by Andrea Rossi. Anyone who is interested can read all about it at the link below:

      This is a brief part of his blog entry on the E-Cat

      It was Captain Kirk of the starship “Enterprise” who said that it is not a good idea to put oneself in a no-win situation. Good advice that was not taken by Mr. Andrea Rossi, inventor of the “E-Cat,” the cold fusion device that he claimed to be able to solve the world’s energy problems. After having been unable to show that his device produces energy, Mr. Rossi stated that he didn’t need any more tests because he could now proceed to market it in millions of pieces. But, in reality, Mr. Rossi had simply placed himself in a no-win situation. The E-Cat is now fast sinking, hit by the contradictions of its inventor.

      Let’s start with what Rossi himself had declared about his E-Cat. He said that it is based on the fusion of hydrogen and nickel nuclei (see Rossi’s patent) and that gamma rays are produced during operation (see here) so that lead shields had to be placed inside the device. Rossi also said that he was building a factory in the United States where he would produce E-Cats by the millions; to be sold as water heaters for people’s homes. According to some recent statements by Rossi, the device had been undergoing safety testing for months at Underwriters Laboratory.

      It couldn’t go unnoticed in Florida that someone was claiming to be producing nuclear reactors in large numbers. On February 24, an officer of the State of Florida Bureau of Radiation Control went to investigate what was going on in the pretended “E-Cat factory” in Miami. There, he found no factory, but an apartment and Andrea Rossi in person. Questioned on the E-Cat, Rossi declared that “no nuclear reactions occur inside the device.” Rossi also stated that all the facilities for testing and production are “overseas,” and that safety certification with Underwriters Laboratory will be arranged in the future. The officer then left, writing in his report that his bureau has no jurisdiction over a device which has nothing nuclear inside. (The complete documentation is here, comments can be found here and here. Rossi himself confirmed the story here.)

      Arend, I am still open-minded enough to realize there are energy sources and energy inventions still to discover. However, I would kindly like to remind you that the Roman Empire collapsed even though the steam engine had been invented. They didn’t want to use the steam engine because they had plenty of slaves.

      Anyhow… if Zero point Energy is really true, it might not prevent the collapse due to the OIL ENERGY WALL if the Elite controls the media.

      Thanks for your input,


    • Organisms have spent countless years harnessing energy and the best energy source they have found was from the giant star in the center of a solar system. All free-floating bacteria is space and all organism on planet earth get their energy from a star. They also expend A LOT of energy and resources harnessing that energy.

      Through evolution we know that the sun and everything derived from the sun’s energy are the only resources that matter, because if there was an alternative, some organism would be harnessing it by now.

      I know this because I have a degree in ecology 😉

      • Just to emphasize. COUNTLESS years, meaning all of celestial existence as free-floating space life connects all of known space. It’s the chosen resource since the stars were created and planets were formed. The sun is where our future lies my friend. Solar and synthetic photosynthesis together.

        And they have meager EROEI

  10. JOHN A NYREN | October 22, 2013 at 5:46 pm |

    Steve, I really appreciate your articles!
    Thank you,

    • Greg Henderson | October 24, 2013 at 2:23 pm |

      I will second that …. enjoy the web site and reading the back and forth on the comments …


  11. Norm Gibbons | October 22, 2013 at 6:25 pm |

    This link is not quite on topic but close enough. Eric Sprott takes on Gold Council and Christian.

    p.s. you’re sounding like a broken record but that’s ok with me

  12. Oops. Accidentally included my earlier reply in the previous post. This is what I meant to post:

    Hi Steve,

    Thanks for your reply. Of course it’s always good to be skeptical. In a way, skepticism is the foundation for a free society. People need to learn to be skeptical and think for themselves. It is because most people are not skeptical that the elites have been able to maneuvre themselves in the positions they are in today.

    In the subject of free energy devices, there is every reason to be skeptical. After all, the law of conservation of energy is one of the most fundamental laws of nature one can think of. However, that does not mean it is impossible to draw energy from a known energy source, such as what is mostly known as “zero point energy”, solar power, nuclear power or the wind. There is at least a theoretical *possibility* to utilize the known energy source of “zero point energy”, although this is considered to be “controversial”:

    “As a scientific concept, the existence of zero-point energy is not controversial, although the ability to harness it is. Over the years, there have been numerous claims of devices capable of extracting usable zero-point energy. None of the claims have ever been confirmed by the scientific community at large, and most of these claims are dismissed either by default, after third-party inspection of such a device or based on disbelief in the viability of a technical design and theoretical corroboration. Current claims to zero-point-energy-based power generation systems are considered pseudoscience by the scientific community at large. Skeptics usually dismiss efforts to harness zero-point energy by default. For example prominent skeptic Martin Gardner has called it “as hopeless as past efforts to build perpetual motion machines”. Perpetual motion machine refers to technical designs of machines that can operate indefinitely, optionally with additional output of excessive energy, without any cited input source of energy, which is in violation of the laws of thermodynamics. Formally, technical designs that claim to harness zero-point energy would not fall into this category, while zero-point energy is claimed as the input source of energy. However, in popular science it’s common to disregard whether such a technical claim deviates first and foremost from the laws of thermodynamics, or from the theories of quantum mechanics. Despite the disconfirming scientific stance, numerous authors have written in favor of the potential of tapping zero-point energy in hypothetical “free energy” technical applications, or even proclaim that such applications already exist, sometimes invoking the free energy suppression conspiracy theory. Examples of such authors include: Claus Wilhelm Turtur, Jeane Manning, Joel Garbon, John Bedini, Tom Bearden, Thomas Valone, Moray B King, Christopher Toussaint, Bill Jenkins, Nick Cook and William James.”

    However, while this theoretical possibility exists, it is clear that only a handful of scientists consider the possibility of harnassing this energy source to be viable. Note the particular wording in WP, for example: “most of these claims are dismissed either by default, after third-party inspection of such a device or based on disbelief in the viability of a technical design and theoretical corroboration”. It talks essentially about having no proof and a *disbelief* in the viability thereof, because there is no theoretical argument against utilizing this energy source.

    Still, it is a fact that to date no convincing evidence exists in the public domain. What we have are numerous claims and patents by inventors, none of which has led to an engineerable device which has actually reached the stage of being (mass) produced. Stanley Meyer is a typical example of this, as are Edwin Gray’s “fueless engine”, Rossi’s “E-Cat”, Keshe’s plasma reactors and even “cold fusion”, which rocked the scientific community in the 1980’s:

    “Cold fusion gained attention after reports in 1989 by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, then one of the world’s leading electrochemists, that their apparatus had produced anomalous heat (“excess heat”), of a magnitude they asserted would defy explanation except in terms of nuclear processes.”

    This is a very interesting example, because it is typical for many inventions in this area. Someone discovers he/she can produce “excess energy” by accident, which is not being understood and therefore cannot be reproduced reliably and thus cannot be engineered into practical applications. In the case of “cold fusion”, essentially also what Rossi and Keshe are talking about, one cannot say that this phenomenon has not been seriously studied, to the contrary. However, if the measurements of the accidental discoveries are reliable, then it is clear that something very important is missing in our current understanding of physics, something which keeps us from understanding what is really going on and, most importantly, keeps us from turning these accidental discoveries into pratical devices.

    Now if the scientific community at large has indeed been unable to understand “cold fusion” and make this into a practical application, how can one expect the average inventor to be able to do so?

    What is missing in our current science is a fundametal understanding of the nature of what is known as the electro-magnetic fields and the implications thereof. Even Einstein did not really understand this, although he had a fine intuition and remained skeptical about quantum physics and admitted he could not find the problem and even that he could find no firm foundation for physics to build upon:

    “All these fifty years of conscious brooding have brought me no nearer to the answer to the question, ‘What are light quanta?’ Nowadays every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he knows it, but he is mistaken.”

    “The quanta really are a hopeless mess.”

    “You believe in the God who plays dice, and I in complete law and order in a world which objectively exists, and which I, in a wildly speculative way, am trying to capture. I hope that someone will discover a more realistic way, or rather a more tangible basis than it has been my lot to find. Even the great initial success of the Quantum Theory does not make me believe in the fundamental dice-game, although I am well aware that our younger colleagues interpret this as a consequence of senility. No doubt the day will come when we will see whose instinctive attitude was the correct one.”

    “I think that a ‘particle’ must have a separate reality independent of the measurements. That is an electron has spin, location and so forth even when it is not being measured. I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it.”

    “All my attempts to adapt the theoretical foundation of physics to this new type of knowledge (Quantum Theory) failed completely. It was as if the ground had been pulled out from under one, with no firm foundation to be seen anywhere, upon which one could have built.”

    “Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the “old one.” I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice.”

    However, Tesla knew exactly what the problem was and what the proper foundation for a unified physics theory is:

    “According to the relativists, space has a tendency to curvature owing to an inherent property or presence of celestial bodies. Granting a semblance of reality to this fantastic idea, it is still self-contradictory. Every action is accompanied by an equivalent reaction and the effects of the latter are directly opposite to those of the former. Supposing that the bodies act upon the surrounding space causing curvature of the same, it appears to my simple mind that the curved spaces must react on the bodies and, producing the opposite effects, straighten out the curves. Since action and reaction are coexistent, it follows that the supposed curvature of space is entirely impossible.

    But even if it existed it would not explain the motions of the bodies as observed. Only the existence of a field of force can account for them and its assumption dispenses with space curvature. All literature on this subject is futile and destined to oblivion. So are also all attempts to explain the workings of the universe without recognizing the existence of the ether and the indispensable function it plays in the phenomena.”

    To paraphrase: All attempts to explain the working of the Universe without recognizing the existence of the aether is futile and destined to oblivion…

    In other words: we should not only be skeptical about claims being made by various inventors, we should also be skeptical about current main stream science, which still attempts to explain the working of the Universe without recognizing the existence of the aether, a fundamental point of view shared by both Einsten and Tesla:

    “space without aether is unthinkable”

    When we do so, we can ditch both Einstein’s relativity theory as well as Quantum Mechanics, while gaining a much deeper understanding of the workings of the Universe using the good old aether theory:

    Now let’s draw in Brendan’s excellent comment:

    “Organisms have spent countless years harnessing energy and the best energy source they have found was from the giant star in the center of a solar system. All free-floating bacteria is space and all organism on planet earth get their energy from a star. They also expend A LOT of energy and resources harnessing that energy.

    Through evolution we know that the sun and everything derived from the sun’s energy are the only resources that matter, because if there was an alternative, some organism would be harnessing it by now.”

    Let’s focus our attention on this excellent presentation by Prof. Gerald Pollack:

    “Gerald Pollack – This paper largely comprises a draft chapter of my forthcoming book, The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid and Vapor (Ebner and Sons, 2012). I preface it by providing some background. School children learn that water has three phases: solid, liquid and vapor. But we recently uncovered what appears to be a fourth phase. This phase occurs next to water-loving (hydrophilic) surfaces. It is surprisingly extensive, projecting out from the hydrophilic surface by up to millions of molecular layers.

    A principal attribute of this phase is that it excludes particles and solutes because of its liquid crystalline nature. We have therefore labeled this phase the “exclusion zone” or EZ for short. Of particular significance is the observation that the EZ is [negatively] charged; and, the water just beyond is oppositely charged. This creates a battery that can produce current. We found that light recharges this battery. Thus, water can receive and process electromagnetic energy drawn from the environment – much like plants. The material below outlines the evidence that water acts as a battery.”

    He explains the fundamentals about how organisms are capable of harnassing energy from light. However, he also explains that his “exclusion zone” (EZ), a thusfar unknown state of water, is negatively charged, while the bulk water becomes positively charged and acid, because of and excess of H+ ions, which means you get an electric field across this EZ layer, which draws energy from the zero-point field (or aether) according to Turtur’s thesis.

    While we do not yet fully understand this “EZ” phenomenon, it is clear that “static” electric field plays an important role in the formation of Pollack’s “water battery”, which clearly suggests that organisms indeed harness this form of energy besides utilizing light and do so with one and the same mechanism: water in a particular, crystalized “phase”.

    In other words: it’s not that organisms don’t utilize this alternative energy source, it’s just that we don’t yet fully understand it, although we are getting pretty damn close. 🙂

    All right, now back to Meyer’s story, as I said a typical example of a “lucky hit” which has not been understood and thus no one has been able to turn this into an engineerable system. Even worse, he got a working car somewhere around 1980-1985 and then it apparently stopped working, never to run again, while no one understood why. I believe this has led to Stan eventually not being able to deliver on his promises, with the 1996 lawsuit as a result. The same kind of pattern emerges over and over again, including with Rossi, Keshe and “cold fusion”. Without a proper understanding of the underlying physics, it’s next to impossible to turn a “lucky hit” into an engineerable system, which is why I’m personally also pretty skeptic about both Rossi and Keshe’s stuff. Too much hype for too long, without any tangible results, although there definitely appears to be something to “cold fusion”, although I do not believe the energy source is actually nuclear power, but once again the power of atom nuclei and electrons to convert energy from the zero-point field into electro-magnetic field energy which can be utilized.

    All these systems appear to be closely related and Stan Meyer’s system appears to be the most simple and straightforward way to make this work in practice, once one understands where the energy actually comes from. With that knowledge, we cannot only engineer a working system, but can also explain exactly why Stan’s first prototype actually worked, while the later ones did not.

    So, to me, all pieces of the puzzle appear to drop into place one by one and I am very confident I can make this work, as can any engineer or scientist who goes to the trouble of being skeptic about both their current knowledge as about the claims by inventors as Stan Meyer, especially since I disclosed all the knowledge I have gained about this particular system over the years openly to the public.

    Of course, there is always a chance I made a mistake and got it wrong, too. There is just no way to know for sure but to build a working proof of concept prototype, so that’s what I’m working on right now. When I succeed in building a working prototype, this will have major consequences for our society, not only because we will be free from elite “energy enslavement”, but also because it will challenge main stream science AND it will make an end to the petro dollar. However, we are not there yet and failure still is a possibility, despite my efforts doing everything I could to go to the fundamentals and start there.

    “Arend, I am still open-minded enough to realize there are energy sources and energy inventions still to discover. However, I would kindly like to remind you that the Roman Empire collapsed even though the steam engine had been invented. They didn’t want to use the steam engine because they had plenty of slaves.

    Anyhow… if Zero point Energy is really true, it might not prevent the collapse due to the OIL ENERGY WALL if the Elite controls the media.”

    That’s an interesting parallel, indeed. Will the US society collapse, even though JP Morgan didn’t want to use Tesla’s tower because he had plenty of oil? Can this technology be spread across the globe, despite Elite controlled media and Elite resistance?

    I think that mostly depends on all of us. Perhaps one of the most important things to realize is that we don’t really need money. We need each other. Money is, in essence, just a means to facilitate the exchange of wealth, wealth created by labor and inventiveness and not by “monetary stimulus” aka “QE to infinity”. With the current financial system, we got the tail wagging the dog and that has to be turned around.

    Many people realize that the current financial system is unsustainable and is designed to benefit the few, mostly because nations do not issue their own currencies but lend money from private bankers who even charge interest for doing nothing but printing paper notes, or even just pressing buttons on a computer these days. Most notable, the BRICS countries realize this perfectly well and it is not for nothing these guys are hoarding gold and silver and other real, tangible assets and are building up an alternative new financial system to repace the dollar as reserve currency. Jim Willie talks about this a lot, as does Karen Hudes, a very interesting lady:

    “KH: I think there is something more going on behind the scenes. A lot more, actually.

    SS: What do you mean?

    KH: Well, there is terrible currency problem. We’re on the verge of the currency war. The Federal Reserve is printing dollars like there is no tomorrow, and if they keep going, the rest of the world is not going to accept them. As it is, the BRICS countries – Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa – have decided that they are going to finance the trade among these countries with assets and pay for the difference in gold. And this is the right move for them…”

    As irony wants it, this system is already operational, because the US denied Iran access to swift banking, so they now sell oil for gold trough Turkey, according to Willie.

    A very interesting detail about the Fed issued “Federal reserve notes”, which are not actually dollars, is that these are unconstitutional and thus illegal. And therefore, the States and Sheriffs have the power to do something about this and end this fraud:

    “SS: So just to answer my question – the government is controlled by the conglomerate or the corporations rather than countries that are up and coming economically, right? Why haven’t these corporations or conglomerate, as you call it, been caught? Why is nothing changing?

    KH: That’s the whole point about it. They’d like to think they are in control but they are not, they are not above the law. And we, citizens, know exactly what they are up to, we’ve been working on this problem, all of the governors of the States have been working on this terrible corruption, so have the Attorneys-General, so have the Sheriffs, and it’s not going to continue. The American people are taking back their government and they are stopping this terrible corruption.”

    So, the bankers are essentially in between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, foreign (central) banks and citizen are using the sell-out of precious metals at deeply discounted prices to empty the bankers’ vaults and on the other hand there are forces within the States working on ending the corruption and put the bankers out of business.

    However, this process of ending the power of the elite is a delicate balancing act, whereby it is most important to prevent a collapse of civil society, which requires cooperation and coordination between a lot of patriots within the US (army), the so called “oath keepers”, and global forces, such as Karen’s team and the BRICS countries.

    Still, I believe this process is going on behind the scenes and the power is shifting from the West to the East, whereby I don’t have the impression the East is interested in dominating the West. They just want to get rid of the crooks and work together. After all, they are our major trade partners, which is also what Karen refers to:

    “SS: But if a financial collapse happens , let’s say, will gold be of any use? I mean, there is shortage of food, look at the world today, the biggest problem we’re facing is the clean drinking water. What gold is going to do about that?

    KH: First of all, I think that we’re going to manage to get our act together; I’m not expecting a collapse. Very accurate game-theory model is showing that we’re going to manage to make a transition in a very smooth way; maybe there’ll be a few fits and starts, but I think most of the countries in the world are in favor of working together and not to have a collapse. The only thing that you’re saying is that some of these crooks haven’t figured out, they haven’t seen the writing on the wall, they haven’t seen that we understand that there is a way to work together and avoid these problems, which are definitely avoidable.”

    To cut a long story short, there are two scenario’s possible:

    1) a global collapse of society, triggered by a collapse of the current financial system based on the isueing of debt;

    2) we get our acts together in time, put the bankers behind bars, and shift to the new global financial system already put into place by the BRICS countries, based on currencies backed by “value”, amongst which precious metals.

    I believe, option 2 is clearly preferred by the people on this planet, including the governments of the BRICS countries, and many people appear to be working to make this a reality. However, one cannot expect the transition towards such a new system to be totally smoothly, but I agree with Karen that we should not expect anything like a collapse of society, at least not until we would run into the oil energy wall.

    You make a very good point that without media support, it would be very hard to get new technology into the hands of the people for designs which need considerable investments in production facilities, such as Rossi and Keshe’s technology, assuming they are capable of coming up with engineerable versions of their technology.

    However, Meyer’s technology is different in that respect once we succeed in making it engineerable and predictable. In that case, you are talking about technology which can be put together just about everywhere with “off the shelf” components and can be used to convert existing engines to run “on water”, especially in the case of more simple engines which are not computer controlled such as older cars and one cylinder generators.

    In other words: this technology, once proven to work in a simple prototype, has all the characteristics we need to be able to force this onto the market by means of a guerilla style viral marketing strategy, provided we do not restrict the use of this technology by patents and other “intellectual property” restrictions. This is the main reason I develop this technology “open source” and in public. We simply cannot afford to allow the elite to prevent this technology from breaking trough and thus have to let go of the idea of getting rich by attempting to bring such kind of technology to the market all by one’s self, as many inventors already tried doing before.

    • Arend, as Steve said, it’s nice to read your comments here in addition to Steve’s articles. Thanks for taking the time to share your insights.

      To add to the “other species” discussion. IF other species are supplementing their solar derived energy with some electrical energy that you suggest, you would think you would see more productivity in darker areas of the planet like the ocean deep where the main energy source is marine snow, and sulfur and other nutrient seepage from the inner planet. Life down there is sparse and very opportunistic given the little resources available.

      Another example is that when sunlight is scarce (winter) in a temperate or arctic region, productivity significantly drops. Deciduous trees put growth on standby and conifers are less productive as well because the EROEI of working through low-light conditions is not realistic, as result herbivores become less productive and carnivores have to work THAT MUCH harder.

      My point is that everything on the planet revolves around the sun cycle. IF they harnessed energy elsewhere the EROEI is so low that they ignore it.

      However, as Steve mentioned, please solve this mess for us and give us some hope. We need some hope.

  13. Arend,

    Again.. I appreciate your long detailed reply. You are a rare bird I must say. Not only do have an excellent understanding of the known sciences… but the unknown as well. Furthermore, you are aware of the whole Cloak & Dagger system that comprises the Fiat Monetary-Derivative-Central-Bank Facade, whereas many scientists are so engrossed in their work, they have no clue whatsoever.

    I must say… that is very refreshing.

    I actually hope that the work you are doing produces a “zero point energy” functional machine that can be used before the SHEET HITS THE FAN. While I enjoy what I do here, I do realize there is a whole untapped understanding of the world and universe that we still have no clue.

    Basically, the EROI would become irrelevant in a world run by zero point energy machines… and to be honesty, that is fine with me.

    That being said, Robert Hirsch of SAIC – Science Applications International Corporation did a study that was requested by the U.S. Dept of Energy called “Peaking of World Oil Production: Impacts, Mitigation, and Risk Management.” (2005-2007)

    The study explored the different scenarios in transitioning from a peak oil system. Basically, the Report stated that if the world had started serious work on a transition 20 years before peak, there would be little disruption. However, if we waited until 10 years, then there would be serious ramifications, but we could still transition but with higher consequences.

    The worst case scenario was to wait until peak oil arrived. This scenario would be a total disaster. Unfortunately, it looks like this is the one we are heading into. The study also forecasted that the peak in global oil production would occur in 2015.

    After the U.S. Dept of Energy received and read the report, they did what they thought was prudent….. they shelved the damn thing and forgot all about it…LOL.

    When you factor in that Dave Demshur of Core Lab believes the planetary peak comes in 2014, 2015 or possibly 2016….. there is not much time indeed.

    Arend, it would be nice to wake up in the morning one day knowing the MEEK now have the power of the world due to the revolution of “zero point energy.” However, my gut is telling me that it may be TOO LITTLE TOO LATE.

    Let me just say, I am not a pessimistic person, but I rather like to look at things objectively. Yes, Rome did collapse even though it controlled the area of the world that turned out to be one of the Oil Rich areas of Baku and Romania. Romania was called the province of Dacia in Roman Times.

    As I mentioned, a Roman scientist “Hero of Alexandria” invented the steam engine back in the first century AD. I imagine part of the problem with Heron’s invention is that it lacked further improvements to get it to the commercial stage… which of course took a great deal of time.

    Furthermore, the collapse of Rome and the 1,000 years of the Dark Ages did not help mankind in the advancement of the sciences.

    So, I actually believe we are in a similar circumstance as the Romans found themselves. Even though the zero point energy system could make things much different for us today, we may have indeed run out the clock for it to help mitigate the collapse from peak oil.

    Anyhow, I welcome any further replies or comments you have Arend on updates to your work or zero point energy.

    If you honestly believe in your work… please sir…. get going with it….LOL.

    We don’t have much time.


  14. sorry, i have to repost to correct typos!

    steve, i have to question your logic.

    you’re saying energy will be so precious in the future that a lot of gold/silver resources will just sit there forever.

    so price of energy will outperform the price of gold/silver? by what factor?

    but i believe the reverse will happen.

    when gold/silver becomes money again, when everything starts to get priced in terms of gold/silver,
    gold/oil, silver/oil will go up big time in the future.

    because the world produces 20 billion barrells of oil every year, but there are only 2 billion ounces of silver. right now silver/oil is 1/4, but in the future silver/oil will be 1:1 at the very least, it could be 5:1

    100 years ago, 1 silver dollar could buy 1 to 10 barrels of crude oil, i believe we’ll see the same ratio eventually. 100 years ago, the world has 5 billion to 10 billion silver used as money whileas now only billion silver in above ground stock.

    given the above numbers, i believe silver/oil will go to 1:1 or 5:1 or better from the current ratio of 1:4.

    correct me if i’m wrong. i understand i simplify things a lot without considering decliing ore grades and peaking oil supply.

    but when silver/oil goes from 1:4 to 1:1 or better silver miners should be able to afford the energy cost more than it does now.

    your logic at least needs more clarification. you need to come up with more detailed assumption about future silver/oil and gold/oil ratios and the counterbalancing forces of peaking oil supply and declining ore grade(harder to mine) before you come to your grand conclusion.

    sorry, i’m picking on you again.

  15. your conclusion(the title of the article) is right. your logic is questionable.

    • judejin,

      I was wondering where you were. Good to see you back debating my favorite topic “Energy & Precious metals.” By the way, I omitted your other comment and kept your updated one.

      While you are free to conclude that my logic is questionable or faulty, I believe you are not factoring in that the majority of silver comes from Base Metal Mining and not Primary Silver Mining.

      I have stated several times that PEAK SILVER will first occur in the Base Metal Mining industry. It will probably hit the copper industry first followed by Lead-Zinc and then by the Gold mining industry. People don’t realize that by-product silver from gold accounted for 13% of total silver output in 2012.

      2012 Primary & By-Product Silver Production:

      Primary = 28%
      Lead-Zinc = 39%
      Copper = 20%
      Gold = 13%

      Judejin…. I actually believe Primary silver production will increase and continue much longer than base metal operations due to the fact that demand for base metals will decline in peak oil environment. Even though we may see more silver production from primary producers, I don’t believe it will offset the declines coming from the base metal & gold mining industry.


  16. steve,but then again,you’re implying base metal / oil ratio will go down. by how much?

    i believe copper / oil ratio will actually go up. i have to investigate zinc /oil ,lead /oil ratio ,these three metal production has a lot of silver byproduct. Peak oil will increase costs of mining these metals. But you have to project the ratios between these metals and oil. If the ratios stay the same as now, I tend to agree with you.

    But I project on top of my head these ratios will go up along with silver/oil though not by as much.
    Because copper has monetary property too for example. Right now, your argument lacks more detailed support. After all,you may be right. But now,I’m not convinced yet.

  17. value of annual gold production is roughly 100 billion dollars
    value of annual copper production is roughly 140 billion dollars
    value of annual zinc production is roughly 24 billion dollars
    value of annual lead production is roughly 20 billion dollars

    value of annual silver production is roughly 18 billion dollars.

    so now copper, zinc-lead producers count silver production as by-product because silver make up a small fraction of their revenue.

    but as you and i, silverbugs, know, silver will go up many times vs these base metals.

    so in the future, even these base metal producers will see their silver revenue go up dramatically. they might as well become primary silver producers when their silver revenue becomes more than 50%.

    so, steve, again, i find a possible flaw in your argument. you need to prove yourself more accurately.

    gold/silver bugs are bugs because we get to the bottom of the problem, see thru the fraud, are able to analyse problems critically.

    so, please, don’t blame me for being critical.

  18. Classic and Christian Right again. What a shame.

    • Yeah,

      I just read the article. If it’s true, KWN is going to lose a great deal of credibility. However, as I mentioned “Proving Manipulation” is a nice touch if it can be done, but it won’t be necessary.

      I have provided actual DATA from people in the OIL & GAS INDUSTRY about the seriousness about peak energy. Art Berman is the Director of Labyrinth Consulting Services Inc:

      I also gave the link to his 1 hour presentation on why shale gas has been a commercial failure. The problem going forward is not whether the precious metals are being manipulated, but rather the available energy supply to be able to satisfy all the $trillions in paper assets and debts.

      This is something that Christian does not understand.

      Darn… now I do wish I had gone to the Silver Summit.


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